another long comment for me to replay on ];

im.. really.. serious.. when im saying i didnt hear happiness.. he talking feelings and serious but umm.. not happiness.. much.. really P:

u might have reasonable explanations.. but its still not solid proof, solid proof like kissing or.. amy saying that, thats something u can argue with cuz its proof..
im not sure how much to even call them friends.. raziel served kain loyaly.. dont know anything about being friends before.. it seemed more likely the story is based on motives of revenge (not really just talking about kain)..

i didnt discredit everyone.. im sure there are others like u, but it takes out a few that do that coupling thing..

that ending leaves out.. yes, also for us to assume.. but i dont want to just assume.. i wanted to know how it ends completely P:
and they wouldn't be able to ruin it if Amy came back to write for it..
im now anyway quite interested in the longest journey plot i recommended u about

ur brother.. ah.. oh, madness guy ? oh i didnt understand what he was talking about it first >_>
oh and um.. sorry if i did, but crying about something like that.. ? P: not saying u did but.. dont.. we are having here a quite normal conversation..
wow ur still taking the evil thing seriously ? :E

i wasnt sure it was me, but i was part of it, and i did want to help.

Well I guess his tone was serious about his feelings, but when he is talking about being Kain's right hand again, I could hear bliss in his voice.

And You say that Kain and Raziel were just friends.

If that were true Raziel would not have even listened to anything Kain had to say, and would have just killed him the minute he emerged from the abyss, instead of asking for an explanation.
That's definitely what I would have done if one of my traitorous friends did that. I wouldn't care about the reason I would have just killed them. I could always get better friends.

Also notice that Kain is the only one who Raziel listens to in the series, despite the fact that Kain is the one who seemingly betrayed him.
I mean he completely ignores the Elder God and Moebius, who have not done anything to him, and instead he listens to Kain.

Shouldn't the exact opposite have happened if he didn't feel anything more for Kain?
He would have sided with Moebius and the Elder God immediately and not believed anything that Kain said about Moebius, or anything else.
Why did he still trust Kain after everything that Kain did to him and go against all the others in Nosgoth. Who, at that time, did nothing treacherous to him?
It seems a bit strange in that, if he truly hated Kain or was only connected to him as his mere friend, he wouldn't have made such a unpredictable decision.

As for people who do that coupling thing, most the Kain X Raziel fans that I have met so far. Which is like at least 50 or so.
Have commented on many things in the game that I have explained to you and are cool. If you want I can send you a list of them.

I mean it seemed like you discredited me and other fans, because you said that my evidence means nothing if Amy Hennig didn't back it up.
She may not have personally said anything on the whole Kain X Raziel thing, but to me the way she wrote it is the equivalence of saying it.
If you read the way she describes the scenes in the script. (In the Bonus Features for Soul Reaver 2).

You even disagreed earlier when I said Amy Hennig confirmed in a Q & A that Raziel was indeed possessed.
So you probably would still disagree, even if she did state that Kain and Raziel were lovers.

I still am questioning why you are so resentful of the idea.
You seem to not like to talk about feelings much.
Maybe deep down, you like the coupling but are afraid that you will be rejected by the stereotypical man, who doesn't like to show feelings to his fellow gender because the mainstream hates gays?

I do agree that there are probably some retarded Kain X Raziel fans out there that I haven't met (not mention fans of other stupid pairings).
Since I have met about 5 of those people.
So I understand what you're talking about. To be blunt I want them to die.

As for another game, if Amy Hennig returns I guess I could tolerate it. But I still doubt it would live up to Defiance, since you could play as both Kain and Raziel and that was so awesome.
It just doesn't seem like making another game, is worth having people's expectations shot down

Don't worry I am not crying, just trying to state my feelings is all.
As for awesome games. You should try Grandia II, it is my second favorite videogame series.
Legacy of Kain being the first of course.

--
Rose a.k.a. Goddess Millenia (n) - Your Source for Legacy of Kain : Kain and Raziel love (only)
My Deviant Art Gallery: [link]
My Website: [link]
Kain and Raziel

having ur brother on my back doesnt really help the atmosphere around the this conversation, seeing that no matter i avoid swearing or insulting, he just keeps pushing on it..

btw, my computer broke down.. again.. so it will probebly take some time till il be able to comment on ur next replay.

u know that what we are basicly doing he is just throwing theorys.. i imagin we will probably never know anyhow..
the game is very much detialed to the spot.. but remember it is a game.. we cant analyze everything of how, why, and what if, stuff sometimes happen that its just like that, be incident, unnoticebly, thats just the way it is and thats how she wanted it to be.
in other times raziel did kill kain when he had the chance, the question remains, why this time is different then the others ? is it about what kain said of throwing a coin enough times it might land on its edge ? wouldnt that work on everything ? raziel could have killed mobiues maybe then in the begining of soul reaver 2, but this is how it, it just is..
samethings happened in other games, such as.. the longest journey P:

having such a.. serious argument.. over something that might never be proved.. its.. it wont matter.. and might be pointless to waste feelings over it..
i, personaly, found kain to be more convincing, rather then bossing raziel around like the elder god and mobiues, he gives him the options, and the discovery for himself, in soul reaver 2 when he meets with kain at the pillers, he claims, after coming there to kill him, that he "didnt know why he let kain go, maybe the will to know the truth", being convinced by kain that there might bw one, i believe he is known, or just is, quite charismatic..

i wouldnt mind reading that Q&A (altough i wont be able to look at it anytime soon..) or having the exact quate of the question and answer.

they surely wont continue the series without her, and that is our only term of making a next game.

grandia.. havent heard of it.. remaind me later and could u say about whats the story.. abit ? P: though i would seriously recommand the longest journey, keeps u busy in the meantime thinking on other great stories that have hope to continue actually

goodbye.. for now.. i guess ם:

What??
There was no other time in which Raziel killed Kain.
Just Moebius's predictions in his Time Streaming Chambers of what would happen if he successfully managed to manipulate time.
The scenes depicted in the Time Streaming Chamber, are merely the reflections of what Moebius is planning time to be.
This is what Kain and Raziel see in the Time Streaming Chambers portents of Soul Reaver 1.
This is why Kain wants to go back in time and stop Moebius and the unseen forces from destroying Nosgoth.
There is only one time line.

Plus as Kain points out, there cannot be two sides and an edge of a coin for every incident.
Otherwise they would strain time too much and be expelled.

As for Raziel coming to the pillars to 'kill Kain'.
He says that he wants "revenge" on Kain, and he does threaten him and say that he deserves to die.
All in all, we see they are just empty threats because Raziel is hurt and feels betrayed.
Raziel could have just killed him earlier in Soul Reaver 1 the minute he emerged from the abyss.
He had many opportunities to just finish him off.

There is definitely something deeper going on as to why 'he just didn't'.

Also as I said before, it wouldn't matter if he found Kain convincing or not.
After all he went through at Kain's fault, if he truly hated Kain he would've killed him regardless.
He wouldnt have even given him a chance to speak or cared about what he had to say.

And Actually Raziel says he 'doesn't know why he lets Kain go when he has no reason to trust him'.
Yet he still does trust him for personal reasons.
He wouldn't have sought the truth in the first place, if he did not have so much confidence and trust in Kain.
Even Regardless of all that Kain did to him.
And it's more of Raziel's 'personal vendetta' of wanting to find out the truth of why Kain did that to him, rather than for Nosgoth.

But anyways
This conversation has been quite enjoyable. It is interesting to pass information back and forth.

I will be happy to inform you more about the story of Grandia II, you can also tell me more of the longest journey.

--
Rose a.k.a. Goddess Millenia (n) - Your Source for Legacy of Kain : Kain and Raziel love (only)
My Deviant Art Gallery: [link]
My Website: [link]
Kain and Raziel

computer back

he did manage to manipulate time on all the other circles.. :E
2 raziels exist in the same time, the raziel trapped in the soul reaver and raziel.. raziel P: that mean there was a circle before were raziel got trapped in the soul reaver, and a time before where kain died by raziel at soul reaver 2 and couldnt save raziel from getting trapped after killing his former self..

he was going on the journey to kill kain P: just had all of his brothers on the way, he fought kain already a few times in soul reaver 1 but he all the time escaped..
he wanted as much revenge on his brothers as kain, since they throw him in and he ordered it, he killed them and was going for the last one..
also raziel softens by defiance.. his hate lower.. he wasnt really eager at all to kill turel.. he didnt want to fight him at all actually..

i wouldnt say "defiantly something deeper"..

next u seem to speak for yourself P: people react differently then others, some would have wanted to know why (not like raziel cared though, it just seemed to have something deeper going down behind all of it, not that he cared about that either until finding some "facts" in soul reaver 2, or atlist.. having leads on some... like finding janos..

i dont recall the exact words but i do remember saying he had no reason to trust him but saying it did seem like something.. answers.. more to it.. dont remember XP

and i do recall a fact of kain loving umah, or atlist having a desire for her, wouldnt that make him... well.. strait ?.. or is he bie ?

glad someone enjoyed it P: no offense just not liking to write so much so often :E
and grandia well.. u can say abit in ur own words and il look into it, the longest journey is better u find out for yourself, but i finished it, really great game, said to be the best adventure game ever released, also recommended by new york times etc..

Well even if Raziel did kill Kain in another time, it was not his wish to do so,
because if you remember the Soul Reaver is deranged and Raziel can barely control it.

Also if he lets Kain escape so much, it's obvious he could've killed him multiple times.

And Raziel was nice to Rahab if you remember Soul Reaver 1 correctly.

Plus he did want to fight Turel, but he was shocked that Turel was still alive and controlled by the hylden.

As for Umah, the only reason why people make them a couple is because they want a straight couple in the series.

I don't recall him having any feelings or desires even for that slut.

She could've have ruled with him.
So goes the symbolism he uses as his queen.
But how does this automatically mean he loved her?
The entire game he uses her for information and almost lets her die.
He also says a bunch of negative comments about her in his voice over and is a smart ass to her the entire game.
Last I looked if you love someone you don't kill them for stealing a little stone.
Notice he doesn't even resurrect her, he resurrects Raziel.
And he knows Raziel will come back when he orders him into the abyss. He knew Umah was going to die and stay dead.


Oh well it seems you still discredit all my evidence. I still don't understand why you resent the whole Kain X Raziel idea so much you refuse to acknowledge any proof.

--
Rose a.k.a. Goddess Millenia (n) - Your Source for Legacy of Kain : Kain and Raziel love (only)
My Deviant Art Gallery: [link]
My Website: [link]
Kain and Raziel

sorry for being abit blunt maybe.. but.. u just dont get it.. u havent realized it yet.. as this conversation began i said everybody is entitled to his own opinion, im yet to be convinced any i was almost sure i wouldnt be convinced by you considering i have played all the games atlist 3 times and read allot of material and haven't faced any feelings that u have or any of the things u seemed to notice, looking to me like nothing but a thought.. a strong though

i continued this to hear u out anyway, i gave it a chance, but u just insist on forcing ur opinion on me, and others that disagree.
i think that the 9/11 being a conspiracy that is ran by bush is stupid, ALOT of people think it isnt, they have thier "proofs" (although none of it is complete proof, more of a suspection reason, proof is something u cant argue with, fact, like fingerprints in the place of the crime), some believe it, some dont, but they dont force it on others, however i dont force them to believe otherwise as well, i respect it, and u should respect mine as i respect yours.

now.. grandia ? P:

Oh I just realized that Raziel killing Kain in another time is actually impossible.
I rethought it over a couple of times.
If Raziel had killed Kain in another time then his soul would've been trapped in the wheel when Raziel ate his soul, and Kain wouldn't have been able to repeat time over again.
And if what you're suggesting were true, he wouldn't have the wraith blade, it would just be him.
Remember Raziel would have to have the wraith blade in order get to Kain in the Sarafan Stronghold in the first place.

I actually don't think they repeat time at all.
The time stream is simply being manipulated by the Elder God and Moebius.
If you remember they are the ones who are trying to eliminate both Raziel and Kain from the time stream.
They also wanted Raziel to be trapped in the Sword because he had free will remember?
All the things you see in the Time Streaming chamber are simply what the Elder God and Moebius are trying to shape it to be.
Which is why the journey that Kain and Raziel make begins.


As for forcing my beliefs on someone, that's physically impossible to do.
I see it as this.
Amy Hennig wrote the story and she shouldn't have to explain it to dumb asses.
Everything is already made clear in the story.

You and a few others may discredit my beliefs but so many great people in history were discredited for what they believed in, and then people realized that it was the truth.
Like Albert Einstein for example. And he did was use their common sense, people believed his evidence without any cold hard proof.
For instance he said there is no speed greater than the speed of light.
We don't know that for absolute fact, but we still accept it as thus.



And as for Grandia II....
Grandia II is a story which takes place long after the Battle of Good and Evil.
When The God of Light: Granas, and the God of Darkness Valmar fought a war.
The story starts off with a Young Man named Ryudo, who takes jobs he can find.
One day he is hired as a bodyguard to protect a Songstress of Granas named Elena.
The simple task turns into a great adventure and you meet many other characters along the way.
You eventually uncover the truth about the Battle of Good and Evil.
It's a story that reminds you to not rely on everything else but to rely on yourself and believe in the ones you care about.

--
Rose a.k.a. Goddess Millenia (n) - Your Source for Legacy of Kain : Kain and Raziel love (only)
My Deviant Art Gallery: [link]
My Website: [link]
Kain and Raziel

when raziel swallows a soul it enters the wheel.. like all of the elders servants..
if it enters the wheel it is to be reborn.. unless u mean by sucking his soul with the soul reaver, well that goes the same as with raziel.. it is raziel after all..
the souls the wraith devourers are sent to the wheel, just power the sword instead of raziel :E

anyhow.. this stuff should be rather obvious.. not realized after.. umm.. how long ? 4 years.

well.. i are permitted to believe differently about the time stream, not that its repeating it self and this time is somewhat different then the others, edge of the coin thing i compared to it, but again, u are free to ur own opinion..
but no offense im tired of this.. it wont lead anymore to anywhere = this is rather pointless already..

did u just name me a dumbass ?|:
but stuff arnt obvious and clear, and we are free at the end to asume what ever we wont since most of it wont be proved, like u said u prefer it to be, just let it go..
so that means all people who are discredited for their believes are right in the end ? no, that still doesnt mean u are right and neither am i.
sigh.. i dont discredit ur beliefs i simply say u can think what ever u want and u can continue thinking it even if others such as i just have something els and their own reason to believe otherwise, again.. just let it go..

and it sounds.. ok.. interesting.. but the longest journey also doesnt sound as good on paper, and neither legacy of kain, in my opinion, grandia and the longest journey seem to begin similar.. i think u might like it though..
il consider looking into it..

after this comment il make a max of 2 more replies, since i wanted solving this along time ago but just letting it go.. but i didnt want to stop commenting just like that in a bastard ish way..

when raziel swallows a soul it enters the wheel.. like all of the elders servants..
if it enters the wheel it is to be reborn.. unless u mean by sucking his soul with the soul reaver, well that goes the same as with raziel.. it is raziel after all..
the souls the wraith devourers are sent to the wheel, just power the sword instead of raziel :E

anyhow.. this stuff should be rather obvious.. not realized after.. umm.. how long ? 4 years.

well.. i are permitted to believe differently about the time stream, not that its repeating it self and this time is somewhat different then the others, edge of the coin thing i compared to it, but again, u are free to ur own opinion..
but no offense im tired of this.. it wont lead anymore to anywhere = this is rather pointless already..

did u just name me a dumbass ?|:
but stuff arnt obvious and clear, and we are free at the end to asume what ever we wont since most of it wont be proved, like u said u prefer it to be, just let it go..
so that means all people who are discredited for their believes are right in the end ? no, that still doesnt mean u are right and neither am i.
sigh.. i dont discredit ur beliefs i simply say u can think what ever u want and u can continue thinking it even if others such as i just have something els and their own reason to believe otherwise, again.. just let it go..

and it sounds.. ok.. interesting.. but the longest journey also doesnt sound as good on paper, and neither legacy of kain, in my opinion, grandia and the longest journey seem to begin similar.. i think u might like it though..
il consider looking into it..

after this comment il make a max of 2 more replies, since i wanted solving this along time ago but just letting it go.. but i didnt want to stop commenting just like that in a bastard ish way..